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What’s up you guys. Hey, thank you for tuning in to this episode of Ask the Pros. I am joined once again by Jacob Morris and Dr. Chad Woolner.

I waved prematurely.

It is okay. You did a premature wave. But anyway, so today this show is awesome because we can come in, take these topics that people have, these questions they have, bring them in… If we don’t know the answer to these questions, nobody does.

I mean no one does. No one is smarter than the three of us.

That’s right. We spent a lot of time, we put our money down on this stuff so you guys don’t have to. But today we’re talking about targeting the perfect lead. So I’m going to set up the premise on this one. If you don’t mind. I was going to have you do it.

Go for it.

Because you and I deal with this all the time, but there is this misconception and maybe it comes from, I know where it comes from, we’ll talk about that. But it is basically believed that Facebook as a platform can pinpoint the exact person that is quote, a quality lead. Okay? Qualified, has money, all the stuff that you want. You want that person primed, primped and ready to go walk in your clinic, boom, you’re done.


Okay. I get these questions all the time. Like, hey, can’t we just target the rich people? I mean that’s really what people are saying. Right? And there is a distinction and we’re going to get into what that is today. So targeting today we have, in our agency, we don’t really target many audiences larger than how big?

120. I mean that’s really when we’re getting into the top end of it. Most of them we’re going to float between 60 and 80,000 people.

Right. So when a lot of people… In fact, I had my podcast, Next Level Facebook has a podcast and there’s a lot of these people that talk about Facebook ads. On that show we were talking about like multi-nation e-commerce campaigns.

500,000 plus people running.

Right. So I guess I want to talk about targeting, I want to talk about its effective use, what it can do and then maybe draw a line, distinguish between what happens in these big audiences and then what’s happening at a micro level. Because I think it does a lot when people understand, hey, we need to approach this small audience with a completely different strategy than what these huge audiences are doing. So I’m going to kind of pass the baton to you real quick to kind of take it from there and say, okay, we’re on the local level. Here’s what we do.

Yeah. So like you said, local level is going to be completely different and local is really where it’s all going to be about your offer, it’s all going to be about your creative and it’s going to be about building up that awareness for your brand as opposed to on the national level where it’s just, hey, let’s just hit the right people that are already interested in it.

So honestly, what we do is more demographic targeting than interest based targeting. So what we do is we’re going to look on a national level. So let’s say we’re going after a neuropathy campaign. So we’re going to look on the national level where the ages, what gender-


What those demographics are that are performing really well. Then we’re going to take that information and we’re going to put it on the local level, and then we’re done as far as targeting is concerned. We’re just going to put ages. We’re just going to put what gender we want to go after and that’s it. Because if we’re not going to be more than 150,000 people, even a lookalike audience isn’t going to be effective, right? At the end of the day, you’re going to hit the same people if you did a lookalike audience or did everything, right?

And then from there, what we do is we focus on the creative and that’s when we’re going through and we’re punching through a bunch of different creative designs in order to find which one’s speaking to that audience and then duplicating and making creative similar to that, once we find those winning creative items.

But as far as targeting is, what’s the age, what’s the gender, what’s the radius? And that’s the other pieces, we always get a radius that will get us at least 80,000 people. So let’s say you’re in this rural Wyoming.

Right, so we have clinic in Twin Falls, Idaho, right? So this clinic in Twin Falls, Idaho, I mean in Twin Falls there’s 50,000 people that live in the town.


Right? How wide do we have to get that radius?

So we actually have a radius right now that’s 45 miles wide.

45 miles wide. We would never do that. We would never, for your clinic here, we would never do a… That would be the entire Treasure Valley plus more. We would never do that.

Yeah. But we use that big radius because with Facebook, the most important thing to Facebook is data. That’s what it needs in order to actually work effectively. So if you’re going in there for your top of funnel campaign, if you’re telling Facebook, hey, here’s 10,000 people, here’s 20,000 people, because I only want this small little radius, it’s just going to be a crap shoot. It’s not going to be able to actually do anything as far as a conversion campaign is concerned.

Right. So your costs are going to go up, you’re going to get no clicks, your CPM, everything is going to just stink. So let’s talk about, so you, we’ve obviously been running, how long have we been running your ads? Four years? Three years?

Jacob and I met five years ago or something.

No six years ago.

Yeah, six years. It’s been a long time.

A long time.

Long, long time.

I mean, for Chad’s clinic, we’re targeting, we’ve been targeting for six years an audience of 50,000 people?

Well the actual audience target size on Facebook is about 120,000 give or take which condition we’re going for. And so his radius will range anywhere between five to 10 miles is what we’ll usually hit in order to get that.

And that’s the same you’ve had for six years.



Right. So instead of talking about targeting for the perfectly, because really what we’re talking about is not really targeting, right?

No, targeting as far as a local campaign is easy. You just got to know the age, got to know the location-

So here’s the deal. I think this is really where you’re hitting at or where your heading to and maybe I’m going to steal the punchline here for a second-

Never still the punchline of joke, Chad.

But the thought I had was this, let’s say for instance that we wanted to target golfers. Okay? Golfers. And not only did we want to target golfers, but we wanted to target golfers who made at least $150,000 a year. Let’s just say we wanted nothing but super loaded golfers. Okay? And let’s say the offer, I’m going to just… We’re going to do something crazy like we want to sell them cat mittens, these beautiful mittens with cats knitted on them. That’s what we want to sell to golfers. Right?

Wow. Okay. This is getting better.

How well do you think that offer is going to do with the golfers?

Yep, exactly.

It’s not going to go well with them. Right? So they must be poor leads then, right?

Must be.

Must be crap leads. No, no. Maybe it was just the fact that there’s incongruency there. The fact that these people who, although they have more than enough money to buy your stupid cat mittens, they don’t want to buy your stupid cat mittens. They’ve got better things to spend their 150K a year on than cat mittens. And I know I’m being super facetious here, but that has to be taken into consideration here, that maybe it’s the old adage of it’s not you, it’s me. Maybe it is, maybe it is you. Maybe it is the issue and the the point is that you have to sufficiently raise the desire for anybody to buy the thing whether they have money or not. And money, as I’m sure most chiropractors who have seen this neuron practices can attest, it’s never about the money. It’s not about the money, it’s about the offer. It’s about have you created sufficient desire in the thing that you’re presenting?


So and actually real quick to kind of jump on that, and a lot of times what… Man, I keep hitting this thing. A lot of the times that we keep getting with those, if you were to give me that exact offer, right? Somebody will say, well can’t you target golfers that make that much money that like cats? Because clearly those people are going to buy my cat mittens. It’s perfect for them. But what most people don’t understand specifically with Facebook ads is when you keep limiting that audience, Facebook performs worse and worse, not better and better. Right? It’s the exact opposite of what you would expect it to do. So if you keep niching that audience down tighter and tighter-

It needs data.

Yeah, what you’re going to end up getting is CPM costs are going to be $300 for a thousand impressions and you’re going to get a click a week and you’re going to be like, well why isn’t this working? It’s the perfect targeting is because, well, you’ve only got a thousand people in your audience.

Right. Well and that’s the thing is there would be a strategy for that if you could guarantee that your offer was converting at such a high level that it would make sense to then, okay, we’re going to go laser specific and, or if the offer had sufficient value to it. Let’s say that somehow you had a… You work at… We’re sticking with the cat today. We’re going to invite them to a cat mitten convention mastermind. That was a $15,000 mastermind. And let’s say you got it nailed down, then it might be worth it to have that just laser specific targeting to that degree where you just knew the minute that that was going to go there and there was sufficient depth that you were willing to pay those costs to acquire those.

Well, the cat mastermind sounds amazing.

Cat mitten.

Sorry, cat mitten mastermind sounds amazing. But I guess there’s two segues I want to make. One is this is at the heart of our three click campaigns. Right? So our three click campaigns have identified what people want. Your problem… So this whole my leads are unqualified or quality, that whole thing gets solved by giving people an offer that they want. Okay, so now you need to figure out first what are the offers that they want? And second, how do I present this to you in a way to where you will want it more? Okay, so our three click campaigns, I’ve got a link in the description below where you can learn more about those, but that is the first piece.

The second piece is, it’s not that you can’t target small groups of people, it’s that there’s a strategy for that.

Right, a time and a place, yeah.

So talk about remarketing, Jacob, we’re not remarketing huge audiences there. So talk about that.

And Facebook treats those types of remarketing audiences completely different than an interest based targeting that you would go after anyways.

Because it’s not a cold audience now you’re re-engaging with an existing audience and so that probably makes sense that Facebook treats that differently than a cold audience.

Yeah, exactly.

They’re further along the buyer spectrum or the awareness spectrum or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah. Facebook’s goals… This is something, when you’re an advertiser, you have to always keep in mind the goal of Facebook. Their goal is to keep their users on Facebook, right? They don’t want them going to your website. They want your ad revenue. They don’t want them leaving Facebook. So anything that you can get them to have a good experience on Facebook you’re going to get rewarded for. So remarketing campaigns perform better… You can have remarketing campaigns that have 25 people in them on Facebook, right? So it’s super, super niched down that you can have super targeted messaging back towards. And Facebook will give you really good pricing on it because they’ve been there, they came back to Facebook. They’re basically rewarding you saying, hey, you’re helping us build a better platform. Right?

And that’s where that remarketing comes into play is you can, you can say, hey, they went to, let’s say you’ve got a three step funnel, right? You’ve got the top of the funnel and then they opt in and then you’ve got maybe a one time offer on the other end of it. So let’s say they opted in on that first part, but they didn’t claim your one time offer. You could build a remarketing audience that goes right after those people with the one time offer and say, hey, this is your last chance to get it. This is going to expire in a week or whatever to get it to claim it. Totally good on Facebook and you’re not going to get raked over the coals as far as costs are concerned. It’s just going to be, you can’t do that for top of the funnel campaigns.

And you’re remarketing. That’s where most of your juice is going to come anyway. Those are going to be smaller audiences, but the fortune’s in the followup. You’re going to be hitting those people with the same thing over and over again. Within reason. We don’t want to buzz people or bug them, we don’t blast them, but we’re sending them the same information because one way or another, they engage, they either opened it up, they clicked, whatever they did.

Well and the difference is they are aware of it now too. So in your top of the funnel thing, you’re brand new to them, right? That offers brand new to them. Now on those remarketing campaigns, you’re no longer brand new to them. They know what’s going to happen.

The other part that’s really nice about remarketing campaigns is from an advertiser standpoint, you’re going to learn really quick whether that secondary remarketing offer is going to work or not. Really quick, because they already know who you are. So it’s going to give you that opportunity to… We actually were talking about this with Chad earlier today. It’s going to really give you that opportunity to be able to run through concepts on offers to your remarketing audience before you bring them up to a top of funnel situation because they’re going to respond faster than your top of funnel people will.

And I think this brings home a really important concept that docs may or may not realize they do on a very regular basis is as much as we would love our audience to instantaneously quote unquote get it, they don’t instantaneously get it, right? What you have up here and the challenge is chiropractors, and I think for the most part, a lot of other healthcare professionals, we tend to be very passionate. And with that passion comes, like it or not, a higher degree of irrationality in the sense that like, I don’t understand why you don’t get this. I get it, he gets it. Why don’t you get it? Because they don’t, they just don’t and it takes time to help it sink in with people.

And also, the other thing too, again, is this is why the approach that you guys have taken in terms of presenting these offers, they’re not presented in a talking head manner, in a logical way. They’re presented in a story fashion, which is the way that we are hardwired biologically to receive new information is through that story context.

Right. So maybe just kind of in summary, in my own words, this is generally what I tell people, right? Aside from all the details we’ve been covering. But a simple way to look at it is Facebook is a litmus test on what you’re showing. Okay? If you’re creative, if your words, if your offer speak to something appealing to the audience, it will work. So it does not matter how amazing you are at pushing the buttons. And I will say this, on planet Earth I don’t know a person, personally, that is better at the technical than him.


I mean I have a funny story. We were doing a podcast on Next Level Facebook has a podcast and it was 11 o’clock at night and this is totally off topic, but we’re doing this thing and I can’t remember, oh, it was how to do a blind post, a dark post. I’m sorry.

Dark post. Yeah.

How to do a dark post, how to find the ID or something. Anyway, so I’m on the phone with Phil and he’s like, hey, do you know how to do this? I’m like, dude, I don’t ever do that stuff. Jacob always does that. Well let me call him. So I call you up, it’s 11:30 at night. You’re like, hello? You’re in bed. I’m like, hey man, I’m really sorry. Hey, do you know how to get the dark post ID? You’re like yeah, click on settings, now go to advanced, now… And he walked me through like eight or nine different steps-

While in a coma.

From bed. And I did. I’m like, oh cool, thanks man. And I go, are you looking at a screen? He goes, no. I’m like, oh my gosh, you run too many ads. Anyway, so at the end of the day, Facebook is a reflection of the audience using it.

Well, and I would say even too this, that the old saying most people have heard, people vote with their wallets, right? Whether or not they want something, they’ll buy it if they want it. And I think you could extrapolate that even further and maybe a slight paradigm shift in terms of the way you look at Facebook is that people on Facebook will vote with their wallets collectively. Meaning they will help subsidize the cost of your ads through the fact that if they’re engaging. What that basically means, even though they’re not technically shelling out their wallet and helping to pay for your ad spend, the fact that they’re engaging with your content, the fact that they’re liking your content, sharing your content and not hating that content means that they are, technically speaking, helping to subsidize the cost of those ads to bring your ad costs down to have a greater impact.

Cool. Well, thank you guys. This has been awesome awesome episode. Thank you guys so much for being here. This is Ask the Pros and we’ll see you guys on the next episode.

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